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Talk:Envy
Just creating this for someone. Haloman333-My Head Asploded!-|My Doomsday Theory 14:38, 23 March 2009 (UTC) smexy Envy Omg its heeere! thanks for making it! Envy's my favourite charecter ever!! he's so awsome! i didn't know he liked chocolate parfaits =D thanks for making that--FunFun In The SunSun 22:38, 23 March 2009 (UTC) Like this picture ! ^^ --La nymphe Chris (talk) 10:51, May 25, 2014 (UTC) 18 = pre-mature? um just asking but in the anime doesn't Dante say, "He was the son I had with Hoenhiem that died prematurly of mecury poisoning. " is 18 premature? just asking.--FunFun In The SunSun 23:03, 26 March 2009 (UTC) Of course 18 is premature. If you had a child who died at 18, fresh out of high school (I'm adjusting this to modern situations obviously) before they had really gotten to live or enjoy the majority of their life, you'd call their death premature, wouldn't you? It's not like you'd say, "Oh, he was eighteen, he lived a long, ripe life, and it was his time to pass." Color.me.envious 04:49, May 21, 2010 (UTC) No such thing as benefitial or frienx or not, or jealousy about it, doesn't matter, cepit, do, be, relation, can do, be, any relation any nmw and any be perfx. Image I dun't think the startin' image at the top is needed. Kaihedgie 17:10, 24 April 2009 (UTC) Doesn't make sense Most of everything in the series makes sense ( kind of ) except the entire thing with Envy being Hohenheims son. How can Envy's real form look like Hohenheim if Hohenheim's son was born 400 years ago. Hohenheim's bodies cant's last that long so it really doesn't make much sense. In one episode it shows them creating the Philosopher's Stone centuries agoand Dante gave Hohenheim some other guys body and they were already together. It implies that Hohenheim had the same body centuries ago as he did in the anime because him and Dante would have had a child ( Envy ) around that time centuries ago, but, he wouldn't have switched bodies that soon. It doesn't make much sense. I hope that made sense. Kariya Yoshida 19:45, October 3, 2009 (UTC) True Form There appears to be some confusion on the matter, so I'll offer this: Envy's big, ugly monstrous form is his("its", whatever) true face. It's his natural form, the form Father and he other Homunculi recognize. Envy was likely born looking that way. But the little parasite form is new, a recent state occurring only when Envy is out of souls to use, something that has never happened before his in his entire existence. I would suggest calling the monster his true form and the worm his "powered-down" form or "weakened" state. Do you disagree? CorbeauKarasu 10:32, March 20, 2010 (UTC) : I don't really know, but I think his insect form is true, too, in a way. Roy calls it his 'real form': manga and this makes sense sinse envy is an ugly, pathetic emotion. Kiadony 13:14, March 20, 2010 (UTC) I always imagined Envy to have been born from Father as that parasitic tadpole form, actually. It was traumatized being born in that "ugly" form, so it spent its entire life taking other forms. Makes sense.. right? > 3> Also, I'm a bit shaky on this, but isn't his monster form made up of the used bodies of the people from Xerxes? He would have needed to go around and absorb them into his body as the parasite form (like he did with the mindless Homunculi in Central). Not to mention I just can't imagine poor Father spewing out that giant thing from his body. Nub888 23:13, March 20, 2010 (UTC) ::Xerxes was gone before any of the Homunculi were born. They are all made up of Xerxesian souls and Envy couldn't have absorbed them after his birth. In his monster form, he always yells "don't look at me", suggesting that he's ashamed of his hideousness and Greed alluded to this form when he taunted him. It's his monster form that he tries to escape from by taking on more attractive human forms. True, he also hated being looked at with all his souls removed, but that was, i suppose, his hatred for being looked down upon by humans. Since the only Homunculus to be born with one soul appears to have been Wrath, I think it's a safe bet to say that Envy was born in his big, soul-laden body.CorbeauKarasu 23:37, March 20, 2010 (UTC) Um, do you remember the way new Gluttony was born? He emerged from Father's chest (?), and he was small. If Homunculi are born like that, it is more likely that Envy was originally small. Dunno about the others, though. Kiadony 08:08, March 21, 2010 (UTC) ::Well, we don't know if he was really "born" that way. It seems to me that what we saw was Gluttony's new form gestating on Father's body. The anime shows him with a bit more autonomy, but in the manga, all that's sticking out of Father's body is Gluttony's head and shoulder. The rest was still inside, gathering enough soul energy to emerge. It brings up an interesting point, to be sure. It seems a bit awkward for the Homunculi to emerge fully formed from Father like Athena from Zeus, but it certainly isn't impossible. It just doesn't seem feasible to me that they would emerge in some sort of larval state without all their souls intact. They're fueled initially by Xerxesian souls, after all, which come from inside Father. It comes down to semantics, basically. Our ideas differ, but since the argument is what to call the forms, we're dealing with a distinction between terms like "true", "basic", "original". Envy, with all his original souls, is that large beast. That isn't a disguise or a powered-up form. It's what he looks like without his masks on and he's looked like that for hundreds of years. But the smaller form is what he looks like when he's all by himself in his body, the form that he takes when his immortal Homunculus nature is destroyed. I think the larger form should be called his "true" form and the smaller his "basic" form, but if you think that his worm state should be called his "true" because it's him stripped of all his power, then perhaps the larger form should be called his "original" form because it came before all his disguises. CorbeauKarasu 17:26, March 21, 2010 (UTC) Yes, tricky one. Both forms are 'true' in a way. We don't know for sure how he looked at 'birth'. Now that I think of it, the parasit form should really be called 'weakened' ('Envy in its weakened state' or something as an image name) and the monster form 'true'. But not 'original' since we're not sure about it. Kiadony 18:21, March 21, 2010 (UTC) It It? I find the wording a bit awkward, plus there are times when he is mentioned as well, causing confusion. I'm going to change it to he. Unleashed state. I thought this picture that I added was a bit better than the last one, even though the thumbnail is a bit smaller. Nevermind, I figured out how to make it bigger. :P If you like it, keep it, if not, revert it. Whatever you think is best, I "personally" just thought it was a better image to use. Tommy-Vercetti 20:21, June 13, 2010 (UTC) Box picture Does anyone else think that this picture would be much better to use for Envy's box? I don't know why it wasn't used in all honesty, but I really hate the current one. Yeah, it does show more, but it doesn't really matter does it? Not to mention how blurry it is because it's zoomed in.Tommy-Vercetti 15:37, July 2, 2010 (UTC) .. Can you get that TBS mark on the top right off? Cause I know there are other sources you can get it from that won't have that. Same goes for the Sloth picture. It's just a small thing that irritates me.Nub888 23:28, July 2, 2010 (UTC) I can probably find a raw sometime tomorrow. Will you keep it if I find one without the logo?Tommy-Vercetti 23:55, July 2, 2010 (UTC) I personally like the old one better, because it's just all around more explicit in showing the character.. and to me just looks better, but.. whatever. A big step towards considering it would be to not have that annoying logo on the side, that's for sure. Nub888 09:21, July 3, 2010 (UTC) I just think the original picture is low in quality because it's zoomed in. We don't even need to see Envy that much because there's a shot right down the article of him, showing the exact same amount. That kind of shot was apparently fine for every other Homunculus, so why is it not for Envy? Anyway, I changed it, logo-less this time. See what you think.Tommy-Vercetti 20:34, July 3, 2010 (UTC) That's fine. As long as we're putting up their shots from that sequence, mind getting the one of Gluttony? Don't wanna make him feel like an outcast.Nub888 05:03, July 4, 2010 (UTC) Find it, sure, but I think it'd be a mistake to automatically place those pictures into the character boxes just because they're part of a set. I prefer the older Envy picture, but I may leave the current one because it is a nice picture. Personally, I don't think the current picture of Wrath or Greed does either character justice. And the picture of the 2003 Envy altered slight details, which is why I changed it to a newer picture. CorbeauKarasu 05:14, July 4, 2010 (UTC) Mercury Poisoning I would like to edit the trivia bullet about the cause of Envy's death. It's a little unfair to Dante and Hoenhiem, and implies a level of selfish disregard inconsistant with their attempt to bring their child back from the dead. It is not unusual that an alchemist would have been exposed to mercury, as achemic traditions include the roasting of cinnabar to create philosopher's quicksilver, a step toward alkahest, and ultimately the philosopher's stone. The incomplete red stones and the toxic red water have been linked to the use of cinnabar as one of the stone's major base ingredients. Envy's death was likely caused by exposure durring the creation of the philosopher's stone, rather than by drinking straight mercury as a cheap alternative to using his parent's stone. Also, in reference to Envy's androgynous apperance, there was originally some mention of mercury being considered the hermaphrodidic element. I suppose it has been removed, but I personally believe this was a valid point. AnkhAnanku 04:03, October 12, 2010 (UTC) Confusion about Envy Um, guys? Hate to break it to you, but Envy is a girl. According to every FMA fanbook, she's a girl. She even sounds like a girl, doesn't she? Plus, in volume one, she describes herself as "young and cute". Most guys wouldn't call themselves that. And doesn't she wear a skirt? I'm pretty sure guys don't wear skirts. Well, not in FMA. Haha, where did you pull that information out of? A bad fanfic? Envy is genderless, plain and simple. Even if you go by its human design alone, look at the chest. Muscular with absolutely no sign of clevage whatsoever. Is it a very feminine looking male? Absolutely, but that's the point, to be androgenous. Envy in the original storyline is genderless, it's never made clear because it's not supposed to be, but if you count the first anime series, Envy is male. To be blunt, it's anything but female. Tommy-Vercetti 21:23, May 18, 2011 (UTC) Actually, ALL homunuli are genderless, to be honest. Simply because they are not even human to be man or women: they are homunuli! And, in the manga, they're the living personifications of sins, so they portray an appearence solely for the purpose of characterising that particular sin and have no defined gender. So, even though, for example, Lust LOOKS like a woman, she's not: she's "The Lust" and, as such, a combination of all cravings for earthly sensations (which is not even limited to sexual acts, mind you)... and so on and so forth. (And I'm sorry to bust many boys bubbles by saying that, but it's the truth XD) Envy is, therefore, the "green little monster" that possesses people and "whisper things to their ears", not a girl, not a boy... That being said, Tommy is absolutely right to say Envy is androgenous and is supposed to remain so, due to it's character. And about the voice and the clothes: the clothes have little meaning in that sense, since that's not even Envy's true form. And the voice, if that was the case, Ed and Al would also be "girls" since they're both dubbed by female voice actors in the original version. ¬¬' Such a discussion of "Envy's gender" is, therefore, at least for me, a doubt typical of people who don't actually know FMA all that well and certainly not a discussion level-worthy to an FMA wiki. Turdaewen 22:56, May 18, 2011 (UTC) I actually somewhat disagree with that, Turdaewen. About the Homculi not being fully human. While, not in reproductive sense, obviously, but, I think they are equipped with everything. Remember how gory Roy's fight with Lust was? She had all the organs a human does, but yet, why would she need blood? But she bled. Why should even need a heart? Not sure about a stomach, but probably there too, when they don't eat. My biggest point is with Greed. Think about how many times he said "I want women". He doesn't want money just to have it sit in a pile and adore it. He wants to use it, probably the same with a woman. I just don't see how he could possibily not be equipped and want a woman. Granted, it could be for status alone, but I think that's kind of missing the point. But, there's also things that contradict that. Lust for example, her gloves, especially with those stupid nodes, look like part of her body, rather than actual clothes. You can't tell really tell if they have clothes or if the "clothes" are just parts of their bodies. Greed's "tight black shirt" looks like just his chest, and it shares those same nodes. But, if you watch Brotherhood (not sure about the manga, I can't recall) when Roy burned Lust one final time, the back of her dress was ripped, so I don't know. I think Arakawa made it like that to illustrate one fact "The details of Homunculi genitalia doesn't matter" But I think it would be foolish for them to not be equipped with that, especially when it seems Greed's brain is located down there. Tommy-Vercetti 13:23, May 19, 2011 (UTC) I don't mean in terms of having "human like bodies", Tommy, cause they obviously do. But, for me, what categorizes is not the 'appearence', but their "substance". Homunculi are proud of "not being human" and, even though Lust may have all the 'parts' and even being able to have sex with a human if she wanted to, that wouldn't make her a woman, cause in order to be "a woman", you have to be human first, which means: having a human soul and, recurring myself to theosophy, "having a human monad", which no homunculi has. They're creatures from the Portal of Truth (or at least part of). In my understanding, manga homunculi have no 'human' portion other than the souls they carry in the Philosopher stone. For me, they're what Medieval Alchemy states: elementals trapped by alchemists to a body for learning purposes. So, the true question here is: "what is a human?", cause, if we count that being a human is having a 'Human body' than, ok, Homunculi are human. But the fact, for me, is that, they having the ability to 'replicate' a human body in all it's biological aspects doesn't make them human, since they don't have a human soul nor a human spirit. And that's is vital to the story because, in the end, the 'saga' that Ed goes through is exactly about understanding he's human and 'having a human spirit' makes him earn for 'bigger things' than mere survival and power and that this is what sets him apart from all other creatures of the world, and not his ability to 'make alchemy'. In other perspective, you could also say they're not male or female cause you cannot atribute that quality to a sin: "Lust" is not a female sin, just as well as "Gluttony" is not a male sin. IF we could atribute a gender to them, they would all be "male", since they're a part of a "male soul" (from Father), but I don't think that's accurate either, cause I don't count Father as being male in the first place (his original form is a black ball inside a flask). If Hohenheim was a woman, the Homunculus would have assumed a woman's body and that would not make him "female" for that. I think Lust has a female body only for the purpose of representing her sin, the same of, for example, Envy being the "green monster". And if being a dog-like creature represented "Lust" better, that would be her form. In the end, I only call "Greed" a 'he' and "Lust" a 'she' for convenience purposes (since their 'form' is of a human male and female), but I really don't attribute any gender to them. Turdaewen 13:49, May 19, 2011 (UTC) Yeah, I get what you're saying, but the fact that they do resemble either a man or woman, does technically give them at the very least a physical, discernable gender. Even with Father, because he's in Hohenheim's male shell, I'm sure it came fully equipped... he just has no use for it. Tommy-Vercetti 13:57, May 19, 2011 (UTC) I get what you mean... I just think it's complicated to state in that sense, cause it can make things confusing for somem cause it makes people want to fit homunculi in one gender or another, like "if Lust is a woman and Greed is a man, what that makes Envy?", you know? Turdaewen 14:06, May 19, 2011 (UTC) :Inhuman things can have gender, after all. Male animals and such. I always figured the Homunculi were exactly like humans but "evolved" in a sense - since Lust put it that way. The only thing that confused me was whether or not their black clothing counted as part of thier bodies, which seems to be the case and is weird. And even when someone's physical sex corresponds to a particular group by way of biology, the idea of gender identity is a shaky topic that hasn't been (and may never be pinned down). Males who identify as women are referred to with the pronouns "she" and "her", after all. I'm not going to make a judgment call on how to refer to Envy. "He" seems fine to me, though "it" is likely more accurate. If the articles can be written fluidly without referring to gender, that's great. But, the way I see it, whether or not Envy's body carries any sort of gender, the Homunculus itself appears to recognize itself as male...or at least not as a female. But then, maybe I'm just being myopic. CorbeauKarasu 16:44, May 19, 2011 (UTC) : :I just think refering to homunculi in general as a male or female sort of pointless (even because the definition of gender would be connected to a notion of reprodution and we have no idea how and even if homunuli reproduce. Without it, definition of gender makes very little sense, unless we're talking about social contructions of gender, which would be even farther off from homunculi as we are right now). :But my main concern is making fans confused as to actually start thinking of homunculi as 'human' when they are, in fact, not and to sort of influence the idea of homunculi in the manga with the homunculi from FMA 1 in mind (as being a sort of doppelganger of a real person). If we take into account the original concept of the homunculi in Alchemy, it would be something closer to what we called "Deva" in the Budhist traditions (or Kamis), which would put them not as an 'evolved' human beings, but as a parallel evolutionary line altogether (and that's why I mentioned earlier a comparison between Homunculus and an Elemental). I think it's easier to think them as something independent of humans, for understanding purposes than to try and 'compare' them with humans. If the creatures of the portal really do have any sort of gender, its unclear and we may never know of it, but what we CAN be pretty sure is that, even if they have their own genders, it's not like human gender (which means they cannot be man or woman) just as well as a female dog is no woman. :We call them "he" or "she" for convenience and due to their physical appearence, and I see no problem with that, but I just believe that stating them as one thing or the other a dangerous area, and to state they're "woman" or "man" just plain wrong. Turdaewen 17:46, May 19, 2011 (UTC) : : Look, I see what you're saying, Tommy, and it makes sense. However, like I said, Envy is a girl according to every FMA fanbook (fanbook, not a fanfic), so that means she's probably a girl. As for our knowledge of the anime, that is 100% irrelevant, as even a person who has watched it for years can make mistakes. Either way, the fact still stands that every fanbook says she's a girl. I respect other people's opinions, so I don't mind if you disagree with me, However, until I see proof that Envy is not a girl, I'm sticking to my opinion. Also, you're right Tommy. Apperances don't matter. If you need an example of guys that look like girls and vice versa, watch Loveless or almost any other anime. And regardless of whether they're humans or not, the Homunculi still have the physical traits of a guy or girl, so technically, they have genders. May 19 :I absolutely love this. "Offer me proof definite" :I've debated idiots like you on topics far more important the genders of cartoon characters and you always pull the same thing. "Despite the countless amounts of discernable evidence, until I see PROOF POSITIVE, I'll continue in my own theory, despite the fact that it has absolutely no solid proof at all" :Typical, typical, and boring. : :I love that just because you see a "fanbook" that automatically makes it gospel as well. I remember when I was a kid, I used to read "fanbooks" of my favorite characters from my favorite shows. There was one that was so lazy, it didn't even proofread and mixed up two characters. But wait, THAT MUST MEAN THAT ALL ALONG THEY REALLY WERE DIFFERENT IN THE SHOW!!! BECAUSE THE FANBOOK SAID SO! RIGHT?! : :You're an idiot. Tommy-Vercetti 23:40, May 19, 2011 (UTC) : : : Look, I don't want to argue with you, Tommy. I totally understand what you're saying. I agree that fanbooks aren't always right and that they screw up sometimes. I used to have one that made a mistake, though I can't remember what it was about. Anyway, I'm just stating my opinion. I don't mind that you don't agree with me. I don't expect you to anyway. I really don't even mind that you called me an idiot. If you really have debated this kind of thing a lot, I see why you may get mad. You have free reign to call me whatever you want. However, I'm just stating my opinion. In my opinion, Envy is a girl, because of what I've seen, heard and noticed but I'm 100% open to the possibility that she isn't. The reason I believe the fanbooks is because I have no clue what Envy is, and I originally thought she/it/he was a girl. I guess Envy could be considered genderless if that's how you want to think of it. I see why you would think that. There isn't exactly a lot of proof as to what he/she/it is. Plus, it kind of has guy and girl characteristics. Because of this, I choose to have an opinion. It's not meant to influence anyone else's opinion or views. It's just how I see things.You're free to disagree with me in any way you want. Sorry if I got you mad. What I really want to know is, why do you hold such merit to this fanbook? By definition doesn't "fanbook" mean "a book made by fans"? Meaning, it's not "official", probably by some third party company. Yet, for some reason the actual official anime isn't good enough? I think you just want to believe that Envy is a girl for some reason and nothing, despite countless attempts to prove otherwise, and even offering examples, is good enough. Regardless, this article will not be changed, nor will anyone here ever think of Envy as female. So, you can keep thinking it if you want, but it's not going to change anything on this wikia. Tommy-Vercetti 00:55, May 20, 2011 (UTC) I told you. I used to have a fanbook that made a mistake, so I know they're not always right. And my goal isn't to change anything on here. Even if it was, I'd be focused on the hes in the main article being changed to its since that's apparently what it is. Regardless, I really couldn't care less if Envy is a girl or not. I've said what I think, and I've been contradicted, mainly by you. I don't mind though. If anything, I'm glad that you don't mind saying that you think I'm wrong. I respect your opinion. All I ask is that you respect mine. And the examples and stuff you've said make a lot of sense. There's no way to be sure what Envy is. I guess until I can be 100% sure, I'll say Envy is an it. I still have an opinion, though. Just respect it, alright? Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, I do't think the anime ever gives a clear definition of what Envy is. The first anime shows Envy was actually a son of Hohenheim, so a man... the manga is very clear about Envy being "androgyne" and a monster, so, not a man, nor woman. The same in FMA:B, aside from the fact that FMA:B shows less details than the manga. (see what I was talking, Corbeau? A 'necessity' of trying to "fit" thing as 'one or the other'. As if even though there's no direct answer to it, it means is if it HAS to be one or the other.) Turdaewen 14:12, May 20, 2011 (UTC) Okay, look. With Envy being the "sin," I can see him as being originally male but envious of the beauty of females, therefore taking on an androgynous appearance so as to have the "best of both worlds." I do believe he is male, but will also agree with those who classify him as an "it." As it stands, we have people on both sides of the issue, but c'est la vie. You have your opinions, and I have mine. 15:46, July 29, 2011 (UTC) Yeah, I know this conversation's been over for a year (to the date actually), but I'm a Johnny-come-lately. I just finished watching the 2009 anime on DVD, and though most of the time he refers to himself as "kono Enbi", Envy uses "ore" (jap 己) on multiple occasions--and since "ore" is a first-person pronoun used almost exclusively by men (especially when they're trying to sound rugged), Envy's a DUDE!! Just another perfect reason to watch anime in Japanese: to work out those cRaZy gender-benders. Damaijin (talk) 22:40, July 29, 2012 (UTC) Just because men "mostly" use "ore", doesn't mean it's purely exclusive. I've also seen anime series where women use "ore" too. It depends on the personality of the woman though. And maybe Arakawa had Envy use it for just that reason too; it further blurs the line of what gender it really is. I'll admit that I do believe Envy is more male based than female; if you look at its human body, it clearly resembles a (albeit effeminate) toned male, but, still, regardless of what it might happen to LOOK like, it's genderless in the long run. That look is just a fabrication it thought up anyway (It can look like anything it wants after all) Tommy-Vercetti (talk) 22:46, July 29, 2012 (UTC) Yeah, it's true about some women using "ore", but mostly that's either dialect or, ahem, "butch" women, and it's very uncommon. (I'm not arguing, here, I'm just saying.) I also agree about the "mostly male" part, too. I've noticed that when he takes on disguises, they tend to male (i.e. his oft-used male soldier form and the shady Ishbalan form he took when he came to collect Marcoh), unless there's a particular use for a female form (Lt. Ross, Gracia, Lan Fan, etc.). I guess it's really moot. Damaijin (talk) 22:53, August 14, 2012 (UTC) : Nah, many women use "ore" just as well, and that's more of a cultural thing: there's no actually a rule in Japanese stating that "ore" is male and "atashi" or "watashi" is female. "Ore" is usually said by men not because it is a "male pronoum", but because it is a very "unpolished" and "coloquial" way to refer to oneself, which japanese women usually don't have the habit of using. But some do, specially feminists, for example. Either way that's not a very firm base to affirm anyone's gender. In fact, there's very little linguistical reference to genders in Japanese, at all. : I guess one thing that might be really interesting to learn from animes in general, in terms of japanese culture and "ways of thinking" is actually that they're QUITE confortable with the notion of androgynous AND genderless "beings"... and even transexual! It's a very old and cultural thing for them: they have folkore figures which are genderless and it's all very "natural" to them. In terms of folklore, for example, they have concepts of the "early stages of human life" to be genderless and that the "division" of genders and reproduction was brought later on, as a consequence to a more "material" existence. But that the Humans were first "created genderless". Turdaewen (talk) 19:06, August 15, 2012 (UTC) Envy's Death in "Brotherhood" In Chapter 95 of the original manga and episode 54 of Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, Envy commits suicide by tearing out and crushing his own Philosopher's Stone. This may harken to the fact that Envy may be the most tragic Homunculus because of how unhappy he was of his parasitic form and that he couldn't stand being that way. Also, he couldn't even bear being humiliated and even regarded Edward Elric sympathizing with him over being jealous of humans as the "ultimate humiliation." Lhammadeh 17:54, August 21, 2011 (UTC) Okay.... yes, well all understood that. Your point? Tommy-Vercetti 18:29, August 21, 2011 (UTC) ---My point is, to tell you the truth, is that Envy is so proud and vain that he always tended to consider himself far superior to humans and looked down on them. Also, he was so consumed with his arrogance that he couldn't bare to face the reality of how humans were able to overcome obstacles together, as opposed to his own kind. Instead, he decided to end his own life as an attempt to escape from that truth. Lhammadeh 18:51, August 21, 2011 (UTC) ::...Well yeah, this made me think of expanding Envy's personality section. I won't do it right now though, it's late here and my Internet is lagging. --kiadony --talk to me-- 18:57, August 21, 2011 (UTC) ---- Well, I'm sorry to hear that, Kiadony. Maybe next time would be great. Lhammadeh 19:32, August 21, 2011 (UTC) You know, if you want to add something that you notice, do it yourself. You don't need to wait on other people to add it in for you. You obviously know what you want to say, so just go and do it. Why does she have to do it?Tommy-Vercetti 21:34, August 21, 2011 (UTC) Sorry about that. Lhammadeh 21:46, August 21, 2011 (UTC) If that came off rude, it wasn't my intention at all. I was literally saying, feel free to edit the articles if you have something to add. You don't need to ask permission or even ask someone else to do it. Everyone is free to contribute. And, as I said, you obviously know what you want, so go right ahead. You didn't even need to ask or clarify in the talk page, honestly. Tommy-Vercetti 21:49, August 21, 2011 (UTC You see. I was thinking the same thing about having Envy's tragic background being added onto his personality section. Also, it feels like it's sometimes tempting to do so. Lhammadeh 22:00, August 21, 2011 (UTC) I agree with you, Lhammadeh. I was so sad when I watch it. --La nymphe Chris (talk) 10:58, May 25, 2014 (UTC)--La nymphe Chris Quote Does anyone else think we need a quote for this page? Something that identifies his envious side perhaps? Maybe something Edward said after the final battle with Roy. AvatarFullmetalPokemon (talk ● ALOTT) 19:38, January 14, 2012 (UTC) No. The profile is detailed enough to describe his personality just fine. Tommy-Vercetti 19:26, January 15, 2012 (UTC) Envy's weight, and possible mass-energy conversion? Just had a question. The main page states that Envy's weight is the same as its large, monsterous form, even when in smaller forms, like its preferred humanoid one. However, if that were the case, wouldn't it break the furniture it sits on (and it sits on a couple chairs, and in one case, a Chimera's cage in Brotherhood), and fall through the floor in buildings? Also, I doubt the elevator going up to Central Command from Father's Lair would be able to support a mass equivelent to that of a good sized dinosaur. Although evidence in the manga/Brotherhood suggests that Envy's weight is more than that of an average human in humanoid form, (mostly as stated by Ling to Ed), it doesn't really make sense that it would be as much as its true form's mass. I propose an alternative, based loosly on Einsteinian physics, in that mass and energy are one and the same (E=MC2, after all). It might be more likely that a portion of Envy's dino-mass is transformed directly into energy by and stored within its Philosopher's Stone when it "shrinks" down to a more managable size. It still weighs more, just not as much as a T-Rex. I believe Envy, just like its ability over transformation is also able to change its overall weight too. So, when it sits at a table or whatever, it's concious not to use the full weight. Keep in mind too, that the only places (in the manga moreso) that you see Envy's full weight in human form is when it's either severelly enraged or after it gets punched a few times; clear indicators to me that it has to focus in order to maintain its weight and when it loses concentration, it comes back. However, while it can sometimes be involuntary, I also believe it has control of when it wants to use the full mass as well, as evident when it bursts through a wall of Lab 5. So, in short: Envy can control its weight alongside its form, but it can lose concentration fairly easily too. Tommy-Vercetti (talk) 15:26, August 15, 2012 (UTC) Hello Envy I'm Chaderella i really like you if any one wants to help im looking for an envy quote about the diffrence of jealousy and envy.... if anyone can respond with the actual quote it would be very apriciated 06:14, November 15, 2012 (UTC) Please someone find me the quote from envy about the difrence of envy and Jealousy trying to make some fan art with it..... if u find the quote, please send it to gevorktashchyan@yahoo.com and i will send u a pic of the fan art as contributation for the help thanx : ...What on Earth are you talking about? "A difference between jealousy and envy?" Then you'll draw fan art of it... what? : Hate to break it to you, but : http://thesaurus.com/browse/jealousy?s=t : And, as you can see, the main definition of this word is also "Envy". Both words are synonyms of one another, so... there is no difference. : It's like saying "hate" and "detest", they're pretty much just different ways of saying the exact same thing. So, I think asking twice was enough. I've answered; what you're asking makes little sense. Tommy-Vercetti (talk) 23:13, November 15, 2012 (UTC) Palmtree PALMTREE! 13:17, June 3, 2014 (UTC) Height I was thinking which height Envy in his true form could have. So I did some calculations and if Ling's body is 1,70m then Envy's messure could be like that. Of course this is in meters but if someone wants a conversation just google it. Envy's stature is about 4,60 meters but if he/she is upright can surpass the 7 meters. About the length, this monster can reach around 11 meters which is super. JPPCouto 17:44, August 10, 2014 (GMT+0) Triangle Symbol Someone knows what means the triangle symbol in Envy's forehead? JPPCouto 18:05, August 10, 2014 (GMT+0) : I just assumed it was another stylistic choice regarding the red nodes (Envy has them scattered about on its body, back, legs, so the isolated headband makes sense too), or some sort of alchemy thing. I think the former is the strongest assumption. : I like to think that it symbolizes his having a real form that has, well, 3 real forms. Each of his true forms is like a corner or side of a triangle. Please change Envy's pronouns Can someone PLEASE edit the "it" slurs that are all over Envy's page? Please change them to "he" or "they." It's gross that someone decided to use a transphobic slur to identify this character, and I'd change it myself if I could. It's extremely offensive and innaccurate. These slurs don't even take up the entire article, just the top. The pronouns become "he" as you scroll down. : No. Envy is a genderless being. Get off the 2003 anime and/or english dub logic. Envy is an "it", and is ONLY, repeat: ONLY, addressed as "he" in the 2003 section, because, in that, "his" origins are altered to be a literal male. The fact you're confused about this indicates clearly to me you merely skipped over the entire article, rather than read. : : But, seriously... offensive? There's nothing more offense to me than you bleeding heart ultra liberals who think now any use of "it" is some kind of slur to transexuals or whatever kind of garbage you're spouting... espeically for AN ANIME CHARACTER who isn't even real. Your stupidity is the greatest insult of all, quite honestly. The article stays. Tommy-Vercetti (talk) 20:57, November 15, 2014 (UTC) : And just to address this as well -- Tommy, you're being very presumptuous by trying to override things that people with an actual investment in this issue are saying. Your comment here shows that you are clearly biased on this issue, so why don't you consider taking a step back from it and letting others decide, rather than locking the page and clinging to control over it? Besides being disrespectful and combative, your stubbornness stops the wiki from growing in a collaborative manner as it's supposed to. : 13:39, March 21, 2015 (UTC) Envy is not an "It" Why is Envy refered to as "it"? The proper term is "they". Seeing as how in the original series Envy is a genderless form they should not be refered to as any gender and especially not "it". Perhaps instead there could be a section at the bottom that talks about the "Envy's Gender" debate instead of pushing personal gender headcanons on a Wikia information page. I would edit it myself but the page is locked. ToxicInvidia (talk) 19:01, November 26, 2014 (UTC) My god... it's written RIGHT above you. Can't read, much? Hey, that's why the page is locked. You can't refer to someone in particular with "they". It just comes across sloppy. Why so defensive? You think Envy will have its feelings hurt to be called an "it"? It's correct, and the best way of approaching the subject, whether you like it or not. Any topic, or discussion, about Envy's gender will add nothing and simply be just a waste of space. Tommy-Vercetti (talk) 19:41, November 26, 2014 (UTC) Actual it's quite possible to do so, it's simply high school english. I am not worried abour Envy having their ''feelings hurt. I am saying that is is extremly rude to '''protect a page based on your own biased beliefs.' I am calmly asking you to be respectful to other persons and un protect the page. You are not Envy's creator and you have no right to decide what is true and what is not. Wikia is a fan based fan sharing site where one person should not hold full power. ToxicInvidia (talk) 19:57, November 26, 2014 (UTC) You're missing the entire point though. Like you said, Envy is genderless. Therefore, "it" is the proper noun for the aforementioned homunculus. Likewise, toys are just things. That's it. Things are just that, things. So "it" is the proper noun for a toy, a desk, or a book. McCrillisNsiah2 (talk) 23:12, November 26, 2014 (UTC) "It" refers to inanimate objects, Envy is a humanoid therefore "they" is the proper termanology. My point isn't even really to argue gender temonology with some random boy on the internet. My point is that you are abusing the power of a fandom run wikia by locking a page on your own opinion. Again, I am calmly asking you to not force your opinions of an entire fandom where most do not agree with you, please un protect the page. 00:14, November 27, 2014 (UTC) And, by the way, the page wasn't protected solely for that lone reason. Way to go, taking everything absolutely literal. It was protected from a lot of spamming, and stupid edits (including, changing "it" to "he" or something). So, how would you rewrite this sentence without using "it" and still have it make sense? "Envy may not be as intelligent as some of the other Homunculi, but is by no means stupid. In fact, it can be just as good a puppet master as Lust, but this attribute is overshadowed by its cockiness and bad temper. It can easily be set off by insulting its large and delicate ego, thus causing it to make mistakes." You pretty much only have one option; to use "Envy" (its name) over and over, which is absolutely tacky. I laughed pretty hard though when you said Arakawa would be upset by this wiki calling Envy "it"... too bad it was her who decided to make IT genderless to begin with. Sorry, you're wrong. Get over it. Tommy-Vercetti (talk) 01:36, November 27, 2014 (UTC) I'd like to chime in in favor of using "they" rather than "it", unless someone has some kind of canonical reference to Envy using "it". Tommy, would you consider that this is an area others might know more about than you? It pertains to how real-world people of ambiguous, alternative, unknown or inapplicable sex/gender are referred to. When they are referred to as "it" it is insulting and depersonalizing, because it implies that just because someone does not have a clear gender then they are equivalent to an inanimate object. For this reason, such people often choose to refer to themselves with the "they/their" pronoun. You have repeatedly said that this is ungrammatical, but this is not true. "They" has been used continuously as a gender-neutral pronoun since Shakespeare. The following sentence is perfectly grammatical: "Envy may not be as intelligent as some of the other Homunculi, but they are by no means stupid. In fact, they can be just as good a puppet master as Lust, but this attribute is overshadowed by their cockiness and bad temper. They can be easily set off by insulting their large and delicate ego, thus causing them to make mistakes." Perhaps that reads strangely to you because you are not used to this usage. But this is an issue that has been debated extensively, even if you are not aware of that debate, and inasfar as there's a consensus among the people who are most relevant to the discussion -- those who are in a position to be referred to by these pronouns -- "they" is greatly favoured over "it", except by people who explicitly choose "it". Having said that another option when it might be more likely to cause confusion, is to emphasize use of the proper noun ("Envy") more than usual. This, again, is the usage generally accepted by the actual real-life people to whom this issue applies, even if it apparently reads strangely to you. For this reason, to blithely storm in and declare that you know best and that "it" is the obvious, only choice, is disrespectful to the actual people involved. This may just be one page on the internet, but it describes one of the more prominent gender-ambiguous characters in pop-culture at the moment, and the way they are referred to does a certain amount to set the standard for how this usage is used in the real world. Since it is hardly any real skin off your nose to allow people with knowledge and investment in this issue to correct the offensive usage that you have inadvertantly tied your horse to, I don't see why you should need to dig your heels in so firmly over this issue. Please relinquish the idea that you are the only one who could have a sensible opinion on this, and allow others to contribute this correction in order to more respectfully reflect the way language is used about the type of gender-neutral person that Envy is an example of. 13:30, March 21, 2015 (UTC) Envy's Powerless "Lizard" Form Envy's powerless form is a reference to one of Shakespeare's Othello in Act 3 Scene 3, "O, beware, my lord, of jealousy; It is the green-ey'd monster, which doth mock The meat it feeds on." Further proof of this is Envy consistently biting people in his "lizard" form. KiraYamato9 (talk) 08:36, January 3, 2016 (UTC)KiraYamato9 Envy genderless? Why is Envy the only homunculus referred to as "genderless"? Either ALL homunculi are genderless (with the exception of Wrath, perhaps) or he has a gender just like any other. Which in this case would be evidently male, given his default body is masculine (i.e. flat chest) and he never takes a female shape unless required by plot. Or to put it another way, there's nothing to make one think that he's anything but male. I don't remember that he was ever referred as "it" by anyone, and much less as a "she". Just because he takes on an effeminate or androginous appearance doesn't mean he's any more genderless than the rest. So, in the absence of explicitly neutral or female pronouns, and the absence of female body parts, I don't see any good reason to use a different standard for him. The explanation that his true form is monstrous is not a reason either, since Pride's true form or even Gluttony's are also monstrous and shapeless to some degree, and yet they're not referred in the articles as genderless. ' 10:05, February 2, 2017 (UTC)' No idea what happened My computer just doesn't like Wikipedia sometimes and in trying to correct something, it deleted the entire page's text. I tried to undo it a few times, and it looks fine in all the previews and such, but it publishes as a blank page. Can someone restore it for me? I don't want to touch it and possibly delete more. Souleaterevans626 (talk) 01:06, February 3, 2018 (UTC) :I attempted to revert it but for some reason none of the edits are sticking. There might be a bigger problem here. Dengarde 08:27, February 3, 2018 (UTC) -Edit: Uh, I managed to get the catagories back on anyways but the actual text in the page seems to not want to come back. It may have to do with the page protections ::edit 2: Got it! It was chrome being stupid, I switched browsers and it sems to work just fine now. :: :: ::Awesome. Thanks for fixing it for me. It's weird that it only did that in Chrome for you since I'm using Firefox. Souleaterevans626 (talk) 21:48, February 3, 2018 (UTC) Gender Why is Envy referred to as genderless? His preferred form is male and he usually takes on male disguises unless he needs to take the form of a woman for a specific purpose. Is there a statement in the show about his supposed genderlessness? This is a pretty bold claim to make without a source. LegionZero (talk) 11:28, January 12, 2020 (UTC) :In Japanese, Envy is referred to with gender-neutral honorifics. Appearance doesn't dictate gender. Envy's gendered when the show is translated because other languages don't have the same kind of gender-neutral language, and it's probably easier to write them that way. Envy never refers to themself with a gendered pronoun or honorific in the original material to my knowledge. --Souleaterevans626 (talk) 21:16, January 12, 2020 (UTC)